Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ma

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Merge to Cannabis in China and redirect title to MA. This will be accomplished with a two-step process, first moving the edit history specific to the current topic to a separate title, and then restoring the previous edit history of the redirect. bd2412 T 15:08, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ma

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Still just another word for marijuana. Nothing substantive in the article. Should be a redirect to the main article, but a couple of editors insist on recreating. WP is not a dictionary. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 23:41, 10 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Rename or merge: The suitable place to put this material in my opinion would be Cannabis in China. The word "ma" in English has a number of meanings, and cannabis is nowhere near the top of that list. Furthermore, because of tonal variants, "ma" can refer to at least four different Mandarin words. --Slashme (talk) 05:10, 11 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of China-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 06:27, 11 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Merge: per WP:NOTDIC. No reason for this to be a separate article. Also, "hemp" is only one of the many meanings of "麻". Esiymbro (talk) 03:13, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:NOTDIC, and restore redirect to MA. -Zanhe (talk) 03:35, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Keep An initial stub for encyclopedic article about important name with a 5,000-plus year history. There is plenty of room for expansion in several areas, including migration of the term into other parts of the world, as alluded to in Abel. It would be inappropriate to merge into Cannabis in China because the article is about the etymology of the word ma and its history of use worldwide, including 500-plus years of English use. -- The Hammer of Thor (talk) 18:45, 16 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Natg 19 (talk) 00:53, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Retitle and redirect This is the English language Wikipedia but the title of the page in question is currently a Chinese word. The English sources for this topic have titles such as Cannabis in China and such a title would be more meaningful and helpful for our English language readership. The primary topic for the word "Ma" in English is mother and directing readers to an article about an illegal drug instead is an improper Easter egg. Also, per WP:DICDEF, our content should be structured around the general meaning of a topic, rather than being based upon a particular word. So, the page should be retitled and the current title used as a redirect to Mother, replacing Ma (mom). Andrew D. (talk) 09:18, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Should the existing article be merged and redirected to Cannabis in China? Your suggested new title already exists. Agree to ~~redirect~~ "Ma" to Mother. Natg 19 (talk) 16:43, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Mother, this is the most common English meaning of the word.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 22:03, 17 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 02:40, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Revert, this was a happy little redirect page for over 10 years until The Hammer of Thor, who appears to have some sort of obsession with canabis, changed it, there is nothing that shows that this "chinese canabis ma" should have priority over any other MA. Coolabahapple (talk) 06:09, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That is not a valid argument in a deletion discussion. Debating content and/or how to "fix" articles isn't what we do here, sorry ☆ Bri (talk) 23:12, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't a redirect page to a disambiguation page for so long show a certain amount of consensus about how a word is to be treated? looking at the talkpage, an editor raised their concern at the redirect being replaced and was ignored, then reverts occurred and now we are at afd, there may have been a more co-operative way of doing this. Coolabahapple (talk) 06:20, 20 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment it occurs to me that this debate has more than a little chauvinistic tone to it. Like East Asian topics are second-class citizens to "proper" English words. This is indeed the English Wikipedia, which guides the language we write in; it does not drive the articles we write about nor determine which has "priority". A strong argument can be made that in an encyclopedia, a many-thousands-year-old sociocultural entity takes priority over a slang word. Also, for precedent, note that Pa is a disambiguation page, not merely a redirect-as-slang to Father. See WP:PRIMARYUSAGE, "A topic is primary for a term with respect to long-term significance if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term" (emphasis mine). I don't buy any of these arguments that when an English speaker utters "ma" she's probably referring to her mother, therefore delete. ☆ Bri (talk) 23:24, 19 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

sorry, but i am confused, youre saying delete for this article? Coolabahapple (talk) 00:08, 20 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have not !voted. But I think the discussion here is largely way off base. WP:DICDEF defines a Wikipedia entry as "concept, a place, an event, a thing etc. that their title can denote" which I think the article under discussion does in fact do; it is a discussion of a multi-cultural (multi-continental in fact) sociological phenomenon as much as it is about a word. So that invalidates several of the !votes above. At least one other talking about reverting or otherwise making content changes are improper for this venue. The sole vote Retitle and redirect uses the ethnocentric argument that a Chinese term should not be an article topic. I don't see any good arguments here other than Keep. ☆ Bri (talk) 01:25, 20 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

thanks (its just that the last two words of your comment above was "therefore delete" so it appeared confusing). Coolabahapple (talk) 06:11, 20 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment, Warning! humor to follow, proceed with extreme caution. Sorry everyone i can't resist, from above comment: "I don't buy any of these arguments that when an English speaker utters "ma" she's probably referring to her mother", you're probably right, when an English speaker infant utters "ma" they are more likely asking for cannabis ... hmmmmmm, i wonder if the South Park crowd would like to incorporate this into an episode involving Ike? anyway, i will now go back to munching all the chocolate eggs that Big Bunny has left me and will leave this afd to more sensible editors.Coolabahapple (talk) 12:40, 20 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(Restating keep) The article is appropriately-written from a neutral worldview. [Note that ma (mother) is unlikely to become a stand-alone Wikipedia article. The slang words mama, momma, and mom are similarly unlikely, even though they're more commonly-used.] -- The Hammer of Thor (talk) 00:32, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 07:27, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect, to History of cannabis or [[cannabis]. This is an interesting footnote, but not notable enough for an entire page. Harizotoh9 (talk) 07:30, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Mother and add a redirect hatnote there to Ma (disambiguation). This is the primary topic for English speakers. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:48, 24 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
~~Redirect~~ to any of the options above, but maybe the Ma (disambiguation). If someone types in Ma they should not go to Mother or Master of Arts or Million years ago, this is why we have disambiguation pages. Have the Chinese Ma go to the 12? or so Chinese words spelt that way or History of cannabis. Just about everything has an older word in Chinese than there is in English, we don't need pages for each one. (Dushan Jugum (talk) 06:55, 26 April 2019 (UTC)).[reply]
(Restating keep) I don't think there's been any sort of strong argument made that the subject isn't important or interesting enough for a Wikipedia article, other than some derogatory name-calling (like "illegal drug." Note: I expect that if the subject were a porn celebrity working under the stage name of Ma that s/he might encounter similar bias.)

The infant stub for an article about an important subject, here, is already well on its way and is shaping up nicely.

A number of suggestions have been made which have been inappropriate places for the information to be merged into, because the suggested articles are about unrelated subjects. History of cannabis, for instance, is about the history of the cannabis plant. This article is about the history of the word ma. As such, it has more in common with articles like cannabis (word) and marijuana (word).

And that raises the question about moving the article to ma (word), however per Wikipedia guidelines the parenthetical clarification is unnecessary unless there is another subject of greater importance vying for the space. The obvious competition, ma (mother) is unlikely to become a stand alone article, as noted above. And obscurity is irrelevant to importance, anyway. For an example that's closely-related here, I'll point to the stand-alone article for Momma.

Some of what has been said is worth noting. And several criticisms over the past weeks have led to improvements being made to the article stub. My best suggestion is that the article Ma could be reverted to a redirect page, pointing to Má and the current contents of the article be moved there. I think this would meet Wikipedia guidelines, if others agree. -- The Hammer of Thor (talk) 15:30, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Keep This article is about a distinct concept, which is the word and culture around the word of the Chinese term for "cannabis". There was a similar deletion discussion at Marijuana (word). I recognize that Wikipedia is not a dictionary. What brings this content outside the scope of a dictionary and into the scope of the encyclopedia is the information on the cultural connotation of the word, the third-party journalism remarking on the age of the word as thousands of years, and the etymological comparison of both the origins and the travels of this word. Having multiple publications discuss the word - not the concept behind it, but the word itself - in multiple contexts over years seems closer to keep than delete. I acknowledge that the sourcing is not solid and keep is not certain. We do not have a publication featuring this specific word as the subject, and instead have discussion of this word as subtopics of other publications. I say keep only because there is enough of that. Blue Rasberry (talk) 16:42, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment After reading some of this discussion, I'm not sure if the article should be "removed" by redirection. However, I still believe that the article should be moved, and the title Ma redirected to either Mother or Ma (disambiguation). It seems confusing that "Ma" would be the topic of the Chinese word for marijuana. I don't believe that this Ma is the primary topic. Natg 19 (talk) 23:47, 28 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Likewise thank you for the explanation. I suppose I just feel that there has to be a better way than Ma (word), Cannabis (plant), Cannabis (drug), History of cannabis and Marijuana (word). But I don’t know it, so I will take away my vote. That just leaves us with Ma meaning many things in Chinese and English (partially without the macron), a bridge to cross later. (Dushan Jugum (talk) 01:11, 29 April 2019 (UTC)).[reply]

Merge to Cannabis in China, History of cannabis, Marijuana (word), or some other appropriate place. Redirect title to MA, which is a dab page. Add an entry to that page for this meaning. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:08, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Rubbish computer (Talk: Contribs) 18:45, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Merge I think there is no reason to be a separate article. -MA Javadi (talk) 21:06, 3 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Merge per Slashme and RoySmith. —⁠烏⁠Γ ^(kaw) │ 08:19, 05 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Merge Per WP:NOTDIC No reason to create a separate article. --SalmanZ (talk) 23:59, 5 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Merge with Cannabis in China - Ma should redirect to Ma (disambiguation) - Ma, Chinese word for marijuana, could be added to Ma (disambiguation) - Epinoia (talk) 01:49, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Redirect to the disambiguation page of Ma. This is one of the most simple and common words in the English language. And it is also a word with many other important meanings. The relevant guideline is quite clear: Disambiguation is required whenever, for a given word or phrase on which a reader might search, there is more than one existing Wikipedia article to which that word or phrase might be expected to lead. Confining "ma" to a single meaning/article, whether it's Chinese marijuana or anything else, would be a gross violation of Wikipedia's guidelines. -The Gnome (talk) 09:03, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(Restating keep) Multiple unique, robust scholarly sources, bolstered by several independent journalists writing over a large span of time about the subject, the word, not the plant or the drug, indicate a distinct notability of the topic. -- The Hammer of Thor (talk) 13:05, 9 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.